Hey guys Really excited about this week's episode because I've got a guest here Brian Jenny from power city dot IO Who runs a boot camp and as you know? Boot camps are one of the models in which you can learn to code I for example do personal coaching not not a boot camp Person but you know other people do boot camps and other people do DIY and going to computer science school There are all these options out there, right? but what's interesting about this conversation is that Brian and I we have the same philosophies about coding and we we show you how Almost doesn't matter what path you take the odds are people are gonna fail because they don't understand what the process of Becoming a coder is like getting your first coding job It's not just about learning to go and there are a hundred other things that you need to think about to Successfully land a job in engineering and yeah, we talk about all of that It's a really great conversation Brian's a great guy check out power city. I oh he's got a great podcast as well And he was kind enough to have me on that as well. So check out his Podcast it's called develop yourself. I'll put the links in the show notes. But yeah check I think you guys will really enjoy this episode. So enjoy have fun In the same way that anybody is capable of getting a six-pack. Yes. Anyone can learn to code. Is it likely? No It's a vocal minority of people that can self teach and this is one thing that I really want people to Understand is there is no one right answer. There is no magic bullet There is no formula to learning to code and becoming a software engineer one. You don't know what you don't know So you're trying to get into industry if you're still on the outside of you need to not only learn the technical foundation But generally how to become a software engineer and be taken seriously as one I've seen people that go this self teaching route and I've rarely just seen it work But I'd also say we're gonna mentor get somebody that makes the path clearer shorter faster for you to do Especially if you're a little older Yeah, and so you've raised three the holy trilemmas I call it right like it's the a fast good cheap You know doesn't that that's the holy trilemma right? Like you can have two out of three It can be fast and good, but it won't be cheap, you know, it will be cheap and good but it won't be fast Welcome to easier said than done with me Zubin Pratap where I share with you the tens of thousands of dollars worth of self-development That I did on my journey from 37 year old lawyer to professional software engineer The goal of this podcast is to show you how to actually do Those things that are easier said than done. Awesome. Welcome to the show. Welcome to the show Brian from our city So I'm really really excited and really happy that you could join me here I know we got up in Los Angeles a few weeks ago, which is a real privilege I got you hooked in. Oh, well, you know, my best friend got you hooked on to Iranian ice cream, right? Like you really got into that stuff. I'm such a boring dude I've only eaten vanilla for like way too long in my life And so you guys opened me up to a whole new world of possibility. Yeah Sweet department. Yeah, it was fun. I was that was pretty cool Went down to LA met you and your buddy had dinner went out price. Can I was awesome? Yeah Yeah, it was a fun night and you know good wahak and food lots of fun conversation, you know, great ice cream in LA It was really memorable night. So look, why did you introduce yourself? So that those who are listening or watching get a sense of you know Who you are and in a bit of your story because it's one hell of a story Brian I'll be sorry. We try the real condensed version. So Brian, I'm an engineering manager software engineer. I also own a coding boot I came from a very non traditional quote-unquote background Contraditional meaning, you know 12 years ago. My life was fairly unrecognizable. I was involved in crime, you know addiction to drugs Generally going down a path. It looked more like a rap video or like, you know Some some local rappers video then then a software engineers path short story got sober Got bored was like what I do with my time learn to code decided Okay, I need to do this for a living it paid to do it then bumbled my way into that and then since then The last ten years have been you know Figuring out this this new industry and in learning it and trying to get further into it man, you know as transformations go that's That's huge. Like it's one thing, you know to learn to code It's another thing to to change a career altogether and we'll talk about that but to come out of where you know You're in a dark place in a difficult place, you know, and you're sort of facing that proverbial folk in the road You could go one or two ways and we know which way is the easier the more attractive the most short-term gratifying, right? So, you know, that's an incredible story Brian. Do you think that other people in your who are in your shoes ten years ago? Do you think everybody faces that fork in the road or was that just something you noticed? You know, what do you think happens to people? In many ways. I'm kind of lucky I hit a rock bottom because I see some of the same people From back then that they still look at oh, well, you were out of control and I'm like you just haven't hit that rock-bottom point So you haven't been really forced to make this decision so I'm actually pretty grateful like I had my mom just to be totally transparent and my Girlfriend at the time who still I'm still with we had a kid had a couple kids and they got together behind my back essentially I don't want to say it like that, but they got together unbeknownst to me and had it in Basically staged an intervention on Easter Sunday. So I'll never forget Easter Sunday. I recognize it is this Transformational day so I was lucky that I hit such a rock-bottom place they got me but a lot of people just don't in this and they said oh not that bad and they just gone on and they just Never progressed. It's crazy. It's like a time work I'll talk to you years ago and they're doing the exact same thing it might how is this possible? And so that's I mean if that was Easter Sunday, you know, it's March 2024 now So, you know, we're coming up on 11 years maybe 10 years 11 years. Is that what it is? I believe so I've just recently kind of started opening up about it because I realized that people could probably use this Insight maybe or feel less alone. I know for sure like it feels like oh it is anybody else going through this So I've just kind of started recently talking about it. So that's extraordinary So sort of if you would you know, I'm a big fan of generalizing some of these rules Right because you know weirdly enough Brian people come to me says oh, you're a lawyer who changed to code. I'm a lawyer So you're the best person to help you and I'm like actually you can generalize, you know You don't have to learn from the next lawyer. You can learn from anybody who's made the transition. So trying to generalize here I mean you would have had every excuse in the book and then some right. Howdy. What's your framework? Oh How would you guide people on handling those excuses that come up like whatever they are any? Transformation requires you to overcome excuses. How do you do it? Wow, that's a really tough one I almost want to say my stubbornness helps me do that But also I believe that really more core that is optimism I'm like a believer that I believe things are gonna get better and And after I saw a couple instances of it to prove it. Well, then I just kept feeding it back to myself. I keep myself Purposely optimistic I shut out a lot of negativity I remember when I was learning to code a lot of the same rhetoric was going on Oh, it's a bad time to learn to code the markets over You know, no one takes boot camp grads seriously, and this is over ten years ago And so I purposely shut this stuff out. I said well not for me. I'm the lucky one and That sounds arrogant or whatever, but that honestly if I'm being completely honest That's how I think about myself in general and that's how I keep myself motivated. It's like you know what I'm gonna be that lucky one I'm gonna win that lottery. I'm gonna win that raffle ticket. I have this idea, but it's not just like this completely naive Optimism like I see it works. Like I know it's possible. I know that people do these things Yeah, what do they do that? I'm not doing what can I be like them? So then I try to mimic their behavior to a lot of my life. I think has also been Copying other people I copied people in the street and learned how to be street even though that was never my you know Background really I'm like I could fake that what if I think being a software engineer until I really was one, you know It's interesting you mentioned about the optimism thinkers I was just listening to one of Tim Ferriss's podcast where one of his guests talked about If you look at the history of the world the optimist made better decisions with the same information, right? Exact same information sense journalists. Sorry, there's a quote from Justin Welsh. I don't know where he got it from He said pessimists are often right Optimists are often wealthy and I think you could replace optimist, you know with wealthy with whatever positive whatever you want, right, right You know, so and and I think you know you refusing I think you said stubborn so you're being stubbornly optimistic and perhaps even on the bad days you just Not even being optimistic but perhaps you're stubbornly refusing to be pessimistic to give in to the pessimism Right, even if it's not yet direct optimism not being pessimistic Is still a big win and so tell us about parsity I mean This is obviously something that you're you work very hard on you believe you're very passionate about Because this is a little bit of your story in it as well. So tell us about parsity, you know And because I think it's gonna lead us to very interesting conversations based on what we talked about man. Yeah I'm sorry. I like you a lot. So I'm gonna tell you that the truth I mean first of all parsity is is a coding boot camp program I kind of fell into I knew the owner through LinkedIn We didn't know each other like in quote unquote real life before this he got at me through a DM said hey I like what you're doing LinkedIn. How would you feel about helping me run parsity? I've been already connected to the boot camp I thought this is a good program. I respect it one of the few ones I liked Eventually, it snowballed into hey, you know what? I want you to take over this business Brian I don't really have it in me. I want to explore other things. I said, yeah, I'll do it So now I own this boot camp in addition to working full-time I'm learning a lot about running a business. Luckily the former owner Aaron left me a lot, but it's also it's the most emotional and Difficult thing I've probably ever done Yeah I'd be lying if I weren't moments when I really doubt whether I made the right decision and in their moments when it's Incredible and I'm like elated and I'm like wow Mike either somebody got a job or well things are improving people like what I'm doing Like I have I have the capability to now scale my outreach to people Yeah, man The emotional rollercoaster of the person is trying to you know, whether you call her entrepreneurship or whatever you call it The emotional rollercoaster is real I mean, you know, I have the same thing in my coaching practice But how long have you been doing parsity now yourself since you took it over? Since I took it over since November and by the way, I've called you a couple times and chatted through some of my you know Ups and downs you've given me really good advice, which I really appreciate It's a bit lonely as you know when you're trying to do your own business and you're one of the few people I know that's Like not only doing a business, but you're also a software engineer as well So you get like this unique perspective that most people just don't get so you have been running it for about what five months now Okay, five months. Yeah, so it's it's you know, it's it's a new it's a new adventure for people like like us in many sense I mean, I've been doing Career coaching related stuff years now, but you know in the form that I do it now to help people to code And I think this is why you and I got long so well get long so well have such interesting discussions is we come from different experiences and This is one thing that I really want people to understand is there is no one right answer. There is no magic bullet There is no formula to learning to code and becoming a software engineer and people have to find what works for them in Their circumstances for their goals and context, right? So so, you know What kind of people should be looking at a boot camp and you know, you know this I've very publicly said Bootcamps aren't for everybody because you everybody needs a different recipe for their own success So what kind of person is the right person for a boot camp? I have a pretty like vivid avatar in my mind of the person that generally will do well with one First of all, they're not college-age because I honestly think the best route is just a traditional computer science degree That's the majority of people in this industry If you're eight if my son who's 18 said I want to learn computer I say oh We'll just go to school and then I'll teach you practical stuff and then you'll be fine So I think the best people that do this are generally one career changers to have expressed some interest already in coding I think it's a big mistake to do this if you have not done any coding at all If you go on and code a little something. Yep, and then are you looking for? What a lot of hand-holding most of us are but and you need some community support I think the same people that might want a personal trainer To lose weight are the same people that would likely do well or get benefit from a boot camp And I'd also say we're gonna mentor get somebody that makes the path clearer shorter faster for you to do Especially if you're a little older and you're like, I don't have four years or two years or tons of money to just blow So if you have on time money and you want a curated path Choose choose a boot camp choose a decent one Yeah, and so you've you've raised three the holy trilemmas I call it right like it's the a fast good cheap You know, that's the holy trilemma right? Like you can have two out of three Yeah, it can be fast and good, but it won't be cheap, you know, it'll be cheap and good but it won't be fast You know, so when you when you see people coming and making this out of decision What is your answer because I think you kind of alluded to very briefly when you talked about, you know Getting a gym coach or something. What is your suggestion of people who say well, why would I pay for a boot camp? Well, I could just learn for free. What's your answer to that? I think it's I have like a thing I used to say in the same way that anybody is capable of getting a six-pack Yes, anyone can learn to coat. Is it likely? No, I think you've also said something that I like a lot It's a vocal minority of people that can self-teach One you don't know what you don't know - you're trying to get into industry that you're still on the outside of you need to not only learn the technical foundation But generally how to become a software engineer and be taken seriously as one So like and I just say from anecdotal experience I've seen people that go this self-teaching route and I've rarely just seen it work They just generally generally go up on a hamster wheel of learning I talked to him a year later and it's really frustrating because these are generally these are pretty smart people if you can self- Teach yourself something as difficult as coding. It means you have a high aptitude to succeed But the problem is your path is completely wrong They're like JavaScript then Python then AWS then some other Mike you're becoming like this dev shop and you have zero applicable skill at this point You just learn a bunch of stuff and yours and you're not any closer to being a software developer than you were a year ago And if you'd actually gone to a boot camp, even a decent one, you'd probably be where you want to be man Yes, I really hope people listening internalize that message because it's not a question of whether it's possible This is what I tell people like you could grow your own food. You could build your own house Yeah, there is no limit to the things you can DIY would you open heart surgery? Perhaps 100% you know, I mean, I may not be legal in some places, but so what you know, this is cheap Be unlimited, you know believe in yourself you could do all these things on your own You can do all these things and but why would you like one of my students came to me and he's like Having done the program like why would I why would I take that risk? You know also like here's the thing. I also think is a little bit weird. This is a career that has financial potential for like six figures and up like off the bat and For people to beg but I won't even buy a book like where's the free book? I'm like, what is this obsession with all the free stuff? It's like I'm in a business as soon as I got parshity I was like, who can I pay to tell me what to do? And I paid a lot of money to do that I was like, I'll pay you 10,000 just for like a few months of help just on the hopes that you can get me where I need to be and I Realized it's part of the game. Yeah And you look around at the successful folks, you know, whether it's you know, NBA all-stars Why do the elite have coaches while all the rest are trying to do it for free, right? I mean it blows my mind man. It must be a reason why successful people invest in a certain kind of training They don't all go back to school necessarily, but they all get help, right? Yeah, they all get help and that's what elite performance ends up being about. It's shaving those little percentages of failure off Right, like you know you look at even when I got a personal trainer Like I was trying to lose weight for years and I was working out diligently. I got a personal trainer He was an online coach. He I never met him in person He literally just threw a phone Yelled at me and told me like the calories to eat and the exercises to do and I just follow that exact plan Within three months. I was in better looking shape than I've been in my entire life and people say it's a scam It's a ripoff. I'm like that dude That little information he gave me through some text messages was worth a thousand dollars to me, right? 100% and you gladly pay because you you get results I mean you you and this is what I tell people you can sort of you can hold on your cash and not get results Or you can give up a little cash and get a ton of results for the rest of your life, right? And I mean you run a boot camp you've had successful outcomes I've done it for you know people in eight plus countries even in bad markets. It's not easy It's hard, but you don't even have to be physically there to produce an outsized result for a person You just had to know the path right now One of the things you said really interestingly Ryan about you know The kind of people that that should be doing boot camps and stuff you did talk about. Well, it's a hard skill, you know Tell people about that when we say coding is not easy. What do we actually mean? Why is it not easy? It requires one I think most people have stopped learning if you're in well into your adulthood So it becomes more difficult to then learn how to learn which I think is a really difficult meta skill to learn 1000 not only the actual activity of coding is you know, I mean to me learning the logic behind a coding language was difficult I mean, I think it activates the same part of our brain that learns like a different speaking language, right? Yeah, I believe and So I just found both those things like really difficult and then also the way you learn coding is different than like learning Something like science or literature where you'd be I kind of passively learning. This is a very active like hands-on type thing It's almost like learning how to be creative with logic. So there's there's just a few hurdles but then the other really hard part is like well now, how do I present myself as a software engineer and Be taken somewhat seriously if you're from a different type of industry, you might not know this game at all I'm assuming as a lawyer. Maybe you kind of knew more about the the networking part of the career changing piece I'm just assuming but if you worked like as a car mechanic, this may be completely different to you as well Yeah, and the world's changed a lot with the online tools, right? Like you have LinkedIn and monster and indeed and all these guys now and so what ends up happening is it's an arms race No one's getting out off their butt out of their chair to actually go and hustle for work They're just hitting buttons all the time and wondering why they never hear back and I come from that generation before the internet made all that possible where the only way you'd get a job is by getting out Of your chair and going on hustling, you know pounding that payment with a resume in your hand like the resume. Yeah Yeah, you know an old-school connect with people let them know who you are. Tell them you're interested right old-school not scale But I never had the problem of 300 applications and no here back right? No, no response Okay, I did do 300 applications. I did 20 really good ones with a lot of effort, you know, that's already good point, man I forgot about that kind of time because that was my experience Beforehand to even like in 2013 14. Yes I mean I wasn't on LinkedIn. Yeah, then even wasn't even on my radar. Yeah, and you know I was reading the Stack Overflow report recently So I think about four coders have been around less than ten years, which means most people today in the coding world. It's crazy It's just insane have not seen a recession and they senior managers in the coding profession Right because you could make two seniors and team, you know, you could make engineering manager in ten years But you have never seen a recession and so you have an entire generation of senior engineers who have never seen a recession who don't Know what it's like to hunt for a job before linked, you know, wow That's a trip dude, because that makes sense. Like there's this weird narrative. I'm seeing online like it's like the do me as gloomy as I was on reddit big mistake You'll never get hired ever like what are you talking about? What are you talking about a hundred percent? I posted about this on LinkedIn. I've had people slam me on Instagram for this and I'm like guys, here's how it works It's really gonna be hard now And this is a walk in the park compared to what the financial crisis was in or seven to 2010 because I was around for That it's a walk in the park. Okay, and what's happened is we've had an entire generation of engineers Not everybody but a lot of young folks at 40 people have been around less than 10 years We talked about 48% of the workforce at the moment, right? They've never seen a recession and it's been an engineering Honeymoon for 15 years, right? It's never been this bush Free lunch kombucha, you know, yeah all of that and then you know crazy salaries and deck and the tech industry grew and so they pulled software engineers along with it and Software engineers thought that that that's a particularly special profession It was a moment of time and I can tell you this lawyers felt this in the 70s and 80s You know MBS felt this in the 50s and 60s. There was an era and epoch for a certain profession I was I mean that profession boom because the industry around it was blue right the rising tide that lifted all boats And so we have a generation of folks who'd never known anything else to think. Oh my god. It's the end of the world No, it's the end of an era and now we're gonna normalize things That's all it is and they're still gonna be plenty of jobs Lots of my students have gotten jobs during hard times like there are still jobs. There's still people hiring right? So, you know, it's Going back to the thing about why coding is hard. It's Your heart percent, right? It's an abstract skill. It takes it takes a lot of effort, you know But I was doing maybe I could learn accounting rules by reading the book like you'd know the rule, right? But I don't know man. You can't learn about sex by looking at magazines. You just can't you know, that's how I view it All right, and coding is one of those things you kind of have to get in there and do it, you know Before you sort of understand what you're talking about spicy analogy, but I but I get it. I feel you. Yeah, it's a spicy analogy It's risky a hundred percent, but it's the truth, but it's true. Yeah. Oh, here's the less risky one You can't learn to drive by looking at the manual you can't there. There you go. Say for what? Yeah, right Same thing one same rules apply. Absolutely exactly, right? So so coding is hard now you so this is where we get into some interesting spicy discussions as well Not in the same sort of vein as the previous one. Oh Exactly. You and I've talked about this. Why is it that? Despite being given everything they need in theory Like, you know in boot camps or whatever a lot of people still fail because people want to blame the boot camp for that Or people want to blame the coach for that or people want to blame them the book for that What's actually how and it's it's a bit frustrating and like I also know that now I'm on this other side of the table So it's a little hard for me to maybe be as like objective, but I'll say this like before this I mean, I'm still this opportunity I still write code every day and I work with engineers and stuff and the biggest thing I see is one What were your motivations for doing this in the first place if it was purely money? I hate to say that's one of the things I used to go around a table and I was teaching it a boot camp And I asked what which what led you to want to code and then like with people when people would say like just money straight Up and they had zero other Reason I would kind of know that they weren't really gonna make it far Motivation doesn't last very long like it's it's easy to get quickly motivated by that But people that really liked it like I would just I like to tinker with code and do it And of course, there's a money aspect to it. I don't blame you for that at all There's nothing wrong with wanting to get a bunch of money but if that's the only motivation I'm like this is a really difficult thing to do and keep doing afterwards and I think the people either one don't realize like how much they're gonna have to go through the Number of hoops and I'm like if you're the kind of person that would just have like this walk by faith Kind of approach that like you're going to get hired right you have the skills you have the technicals You're doing you're going to get hired It's just you don't know when that will be unfortunately But if you stop or you just apply the same thing a bunch of times It doesn't work and you just keep doing that same thing. You're gonna burn out first of all and be nowhere Yeah, but I've yet to ever like honestly ever ever ever ever see a person they had a technical foundation that you know Recalibrated their approach and just stayed consistent. It just wasn't hired Everything you just said Brian, isn't that true of everything else in life? Oh, yeah I mean you could apply this like I think that That's a really good point I think about like getting in shape especially to like people like I'm going to the first of the year and then they wait for This magical moment like now I'm gonna finally do this thing I know I'm supposed to and they just lose Like interest essentially because it's like this long road and they realize like I'm not seeing the change. I wanted really quickly I'm kind of done with this thing. Yeah man It's 100% like there was a time when people try to be entrepreneurs to get rich quick Now I have failed entrepreneurs come to me to get to get rich quick by coding and I'm like, yeah You haven't let the lesson have you it's the same problem uncertainty risk unknowable factors Repeated effort with no surety of success for an indefinite period of time The best you can do is follow the process and wait till it comes Okay, like that's the only formula apart from that we can't tell you anything more but it's true whether it's relationships entrepreneurship Business learning to code learning to play the guitar whatever it is. It's the same thing ever. It's the same thing, right? Okay, so that's why people fail. So what would you if you had to flip it around and tell someone well You will succeed if you were to what would that be? Oh, it's a good one Cuz I've seen so many things work like I've seen a lot of things fail I'm trying to think of the things that work that I've seen More often than not and one is beginning to apply way earlier than you want so beginning to keep your your technical skills in parallel with your interview and Networking skills like way before I was ready to get hired I was trying my hardest to get interviews because I wanted to know how bad I was How off am I and I see the people that do that generally do well and people that take? side projects being a very practical thing that I see people do it one tells me that you are generally interested in coding like have An intrinsic desire to do this and like learn and build stuff and not only that you'll build Something that you're emotionally attached to keeps you involved in the process. It will like help you out in interviews So the people that do really those two things honestly, like they build stuff outside of their program or whatever Structured thing they're doing whether it's self-teaching or a mentor or whatever they're doing something on the side that they're emotionally attached to and then they are applying well before they are ready to and Then they are seeing their place in the market They're trying to test their value in the marketplace before they get to the real test They also explore their like own network If you tell people what you're looking for - you never know who knows who and you'd be shocked who you might know that could Put you somewhere Absolutely, and so it sounds like at least what you said in your worldview There's no one formula. Those we know it by now, right? Yeah, and someone would have written a blog about it and that's right. That's it And then also software engineers would not be like, yeah Just do a plus B and you know You'll get there and if that were the case everybody would be a software engineer and the the market for it would collapse and salaries It good up like that's what would happen in economics, right? Reason why software engineering pays well is not everyone can do it because not everyone will do what it takes to do it Everyone can do it, but they won't right so that means so by what you describe It's not just about the learning to code. You have to know how to you know network as you call it So inverting this question, why would you say learning to code is not enough to become a professional coder? Oh, I would say it's not enough. Yeah, it's just it's like the bare minimum, right? People don't understand this though. But why is it the bare minimum? Let's help them understand that Yeah, I guess because once you have the skill it's it's one thing to have the skill in another way to apply it I wish I had a really good analogy for this Maybe you maybe you can help me out with that one, but you know how to do the thing It's like knowing how to bake cookies Maybe there's a big difference between the person that knows how to bake cookies and the person that has a small at-home business It's selling cookies to their friends and family and other people What's the difference between that person the other person one person has made it a profession? The other person has made it a hobby and one person had to acquire other skills in order to attract customers They had to understand emotional intelligence You know generally how to communicate how to tell people about the skill to make them feel comfortable Beautiful analogy you you totally nailed it. That's exactly how I view it as well And it's funny but people don't realize you used one word which I think is absolutely key and operative there Professional right easiest way to understand this how many people do we know how to play basketball man like seriously? Oh, yeah. Yeah, right how many people are professional basketball? That was pretty good, right? The difference is it's one thing to know something To have what I call literacy and some basic skills. It's another thing to have a professional level of skill and The market hires professionals not hobbyists. I like that a lot Yeah, there's all these other skills and no one's paying someone six figures for the ability to write a few lines of code No one that's not what good things about no Right. That's a wild assumption too, which I feel kind of bags I think a lot of people assume that like they say all like learn this discrete set of instructions that I can then like copy and paste Millions of times over like now I know a for loop and an object and I'll just combine these concepts Practically until I write enough code that something like no no No, you're coming up your your problem solving wildly complex things learning stuff all the time, right? Balancing business needs and technology needs and a ton of other stuff Yeah, I mean, it's it's really a lot of process and people management as well at some level man That's I really hope people are paying attention because I think we now live in an era certainly this decade Wasn't sure so much like this when I started in 2018 or 19 when I started learning you good You know for the fourth or fifth time, but it's been like this for 10 years There's been a steady trend where people have sort of oversimplified thinking learn some JavaScript and HTML You know learn this and you know and you'll become that it's because there's a lot of Influencing on social media that says this is how I did it and I only learned these three and that's not the whole story You know that is definitely not lucky people out there too Like I've met some lucky people that literally know HTML CSS and a little bit of JavaScript and there and they got hired and actually made I wouldn't call them careers Maybe but they get paid to do that to do that And they tend to be vocal exactly and also they also because of their experience Assume that the rest of the world is like that because you know that that fallacy that if this is my reality This is real for everybody else Not the case hundred percent not the case, you know, it's a projection I mean, yeah, some people will get lucky my mentor used to keep reminding me She's like even the dead clock will show the right time twice a day You know and I'm like, yeah, that is that is so good. I love that phrase I've been using it differently a broken clock is right twice a day. There you go. Same paper phrases, right? You're the only other person I know I think is who's heard it I'd never heard it till she mentioned it to me and I'm like that is so true There's a difference between just having gotten lucky and knowing a process. So, you know, it's an sort of rings me to the last question if you were to sort of recap this in your head and think about all the mistakes people make when it comes to Acquiring a complex new skill like coding and making it a career You've seen this through the boot camps. I've seen it through the coaching What would you say the big mistakes people make mistakes of assumptions mistakes of you know, Commission mistake mistakes of omission Whatever just as many as you can think yeah so biggest mistakes one not even learning if you have any desire to do this or imagine yourself doing a Challenging job like this eight hours a day and thinking is this really something that you're gonna enjoy also I think thinking what does this mean for your life in general like? Is the money gonna make you happier is the work going to make you happier? Is it a combination? Is there something else in your life? You're trying to replace or You know help with this skill that maybe you're looking in the wrong direction for Maybe your real issue is just making more money and you should focus on that But I think to me people see coding is like a a fix-all for their whole problem. Like I'm broke I don't feel good about myself. I need to this is gonna make me feel more superior and also make me rich I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, you're picking the wrong thing Yeah, you're attacking the right problem with potentially the wrong solution I think that's one of the biggest ones I feel I feel bad because I do see like and I had that same issue too I'm like, I do want to feel better about myself. I want to be proud of what I do I was lucky enough that I'm like This is also something that I really really like doing like I can't stop doing this thing I could get a million dollars tomorrow and I'd be writing code on nearly a daily basis I'm sure of it for the foreseeable future If that's not you I don't think that has to be you either but at the same time if you're trying to solve some other issue I think people going about it in a weird way. It's like coding is a solve-all But the other big one too is the idea that this is somehow a short-term Fix or career. It's like am I too old thing too or am I? 25 30 40 Mike this whole idea of whatever whatever you are you are so I can't help your age You can't help it either or your whatever attributes about yourself that are unchangeable Just do the thing realize that we're gonna work through your 65, right? You don't need to escape the rat race Like this is the race you want to play and sometimes you should just play the game for the sake of playing the game Like maybe at the end of this game we're playing it's just more game to play So get into this thing and not as like a stepping stone necessarily, but like that might be Your path. Yeah, man There's so much to unpack in that one. So then so many people come thinking I'm in this situation. This is my way Right. This is my ticket. It's a get-rich-quick thing. Other people have done it really fast I they have no idea what the coding world's like, but they think that because they've seen it on tick-tock or whatever It's something that anyone can just do and on six figures overnight, you know stuff like that And I'll give you an example just yesterday Last night someone reached out from Canada and they're an immigrant in Canada been there a year living off their savings Trying to make their life and they're like, I'm like, what are you trying to do? They're like, well, you know I'd like you to coach me because I want to become a coder here in the next six months and I said that's not a plan That's a wild. Hope you know and I'll be honest like it's possible. But if that's your plan I like and what happens if you don't You know what happens if it takes you 12 months? He's like, oh well, like I can't really why wouldn't just take me six months I'm like, I'm not saying it would or wouldn't we don't know that's the honest truth. Yeah, we don't know what happens Yeah, that's the honest truth is we don't know it's possible. But it's also possible. You may not we don't know where the markets going We don't know whether you'll do all the work required in and all that. So had no work permit Was studying had enrolled in college living off savings and was completely fixed in their belief that they could While doing college without a work permit get a coding job as someone with zero experience Prior work experience people without local work experience have a longer journey They just do I know because I migrated countries a couple of times. I know right just takes longer to get local work experience because Hiring managers have alternatives that are local at a little bit safer. I get it. It's not fair It's not right maybe but it's the it's a reality of things and so I told this person I said I really don't think this is the right thing for you I would be dishonest if I said I was gonna coach you because my true belief on this is You're probably not setting yourself up for success Once you get your work permit once you get some local work experience once you get your feet under the table in Canada bit Then we could revisit it when all your other needs are secure right now you're too wildly insecure for you to be able to give anxious free time to learning to go and You're putting on yourself under so much pressure that the the threat of failure is so great for you that you're probably gonna fail You know, so did you think I mean, do you have any thoughts on that? Like do you think I did the right thing there or not so much? Absolutely. I think that I'm glad there's people in the world like you doing that because like my I have an expressive face But when you're telling me this my whoa, that's but I'm really you know It's just great to know that people out there like keeping people honest and saying here's the reality like I can't promise you Future like I don't know. I'm can't you sure hold for you How can I tell you in six months for sure? You'll have a career change to a while to different career, you know with all these other factors going on And then my proxy puts tons of pressure on you. But yeah, I mean, that's a that's amazing You did that because a lot of people would not well, but it's also interesting that people think that they don't Oh, they don't fully appreciate that. You've got to Layer by layer often painstakingly assemble circumstances such that you keep increasing the odds of success There is no you know Magical toss this coin. It's always gonna land on heads formula to this right? It's you've got to secure yourself You've got to make sure you've got income or runway like businesses do this all the time Businesses don't do the Hail Mary's like people think they do they absolutely do not they they got their runway Even now in the downtimes the reason why tech companies are laying off people is not because they don't have cash It's because they're just being financially prudent. They're just protecting themselves from downside, you know, and we do that in businesses all the time Why is it that people who are I guess my question therefore Brian? Sorry, I'm waffling here, but I guess my question is What do you say to people and they say well It's easy for you to tell me not to do it because you've already done it You don't know what it's like to be me and who are you to tell me that I shouldn't pursue this You know what, which is not what I'm saying. I'm just saying you shouldn't pursue it in this way You should absolutely pursue this but with a better plan, but that's not what they hear. What do you have? What message do you have for people like that? I mean, first of all, I almost say well first of all Take everything I say with a grain of salt too, because I'm not you You have to ultimately do what makes the most sense for you me having actually done this and now I'm a risk seeker I just bought a business that I have not much clue how this is gonna go Right, so I'm not that much different from a lot of people out there They may be switching careers right now, but I everything that you've said is I'm living by that as well I wouldn't just do this if I didn't have some you know for one inclination It would work by having started other businesses in the past and seeing them either fail or have some moderate success Do you having you know enough money to not feel like this is gonna ruin my entire life and also not having like a? Hard date that's gonna either Bring about my demise or or success, you know within like a short time period so I mean I can tell you what works for me I'm completely biased by my own life my own experiences and all the All the bundle of context I come with, you know You got to do what you think works for you And but but statistically and through the odds you can kind of tell you that this is likely not gonna work in your favor right and and and so you would also encourage people to Genuinely ask themselves. Do they want to be a coder or do they want the six figures and coding is just the way to do It like, you know, I mean for sure. Yeah. Yeah It's such a difficult message though, right because people are like no, but you don't understand I come from a family and they need the money and I need the money and I'm like no actually do understand that You know, I did grow up in the developing world. I totally understand that and you've seen hardship and struggle in your life we understand that but There's no point being successful at something you hate because you'll fail by default Absolutely. There's a hot dog vendor in New York making over six figures if you want to make six figures Is it there's a lot of careers out there doing a lot of ways to do it You could go playing trash cans in a nice neighborhood and do that. I'm sure you could but do you want to? Know you have to really think what's your real goal here? What's your real goal? Absolutely, and that's that's the key question What is your real goal? And I think it makes a lot of people uncomfortable think about it because the idea of waiting for the real goal is So much more painful than taking huge action right now because that's what we're encouraged to do and you know Having the Hail Mary without thinking about well if I don't succeed What rubble do I have to clean up, you know after that and how much time have I lost? You know, especially for career changes in the 30s, you know, I'm 43 You're a little bit younger to think about the same age. We kind of halfway through a career man Like, you know, it's a sobering thought that we kind of we've done with half We've got one one half left and time is of the essence not the money anymore You know, it's how do you want to optimize for that time, right? It's true for career changes. What do you think? Yeah Yeah, I ask myself this question all the time. What do you really want? I think about this a lot because I'm not always sure what I really want at first. I thought I knew I Had a number in my head money. I got the number my quote Is that what I really wanted then? I realized there's an endless chase for more and more and more money that I find some Value in because it's like a game to be played but I don't actually literally get enjoyment from just making Money much more money money money money money or getting higher and higher titles I think what do I really want and then I had to really think about that I think it's a good exercise to do I just ask yourself Yeah, man, that's that that is always Ryan when I talk with you is you know I just have all these thoughts buzzing in my head. It's very thought-provoking So thank you so much for you know, you're very articulate sensitive empathetic and deeply experienced perspectives and things like you're a person is capable of holding multiple paradoxical thoughts in your mind which to me is a superpower and Apparently it's one of the predictors of success is people who can hold paradoxical ideas in their mind without Struggling on this. Yeah. No, but it's it's a real thing It's a real skill because you recognize that life is full of nuance It comes through and you know, there is no linear path through any of this like anyway whether it's you know By my parsity and trying to grow that or you know Whether it's becoming a coda whether it's abandoning a certain kind of lifestyle in favor of the risk of another There is no one universal answer. There is no guarantee of success. There's no right or wrong There's right for you and there's wrong for you and even that changes from year to year because we evolve right? Yeah, I like how you sum it up man. Thank you. It's been always great talking to you I love speaking with you and Really interesting conversations we have this is a really good one. Yeah, man. I appreciate your time I appreciate your generosity and for those of you who don't know and I put all this this in the show notes as well Brian has his own podcast called develop yourself, which is really quite outstanding because a I love the title It's got two meanings to it, which is brilliant but you know check out the podcast absolutely check out everything that Brian's put out out there because as you can see from this conversation Brian's a person who thinks a lot about what he says and he only says what's necessary to communicate what he's thinking and there's a certain Amount of there's an undeniable truth and authenticity to the way Brian presents his perspective Which is is is so refreshing in a world that just filled with noise and loud opinions without any world experience So Brian's one of the few people who actually experienced the stuff he's talking about and it comes from a place of knowing And deep experience not from a place of you know, I've read another book and I'm gonna tell you what I read You know, it's none of that stuff. So follow this guy, you know, keep in touch with him on LinkedIn I'll put all the links in the show notes Follow this guy listen to this podcast check out bar city see if it's the right thing for you And whatever you do just you know Listen to Brian's advice on everything because chances are he's been through something that you're struggling with and he's got a perspective That'll really help you. So Brian. Thanks again, man. I really appreciate you taking the time out for this Thank you so much. Really appreciate that Alright guys, thanks so much for joining me for that I hope you had a lot of insight and value coming out of that conversation if you really pay attention everything that Brian is saying you'll see that it actually dovetails quite beautifully quite accurately with the stuff that I've often said both on LinkedIn and on YouTube and other places There are certain meta truths meta Principles at play here guys. It's not just about learning a couple languages not about trying to get rich quick None of that actually works when it comes to getting a developer career Okay, if you're serious about becoming a tech worker and joining the development world becoming a coder getting an engineering job There are lots of skills meta skills and principles that you got apply It's not just about learning, you know HTML and JavaScript like very few people almost none I don't know any Brian said he knows a couple but I don't know any who've actually done it that way Okay, there's a lot of compound skills that are needed. So pay attention to that and build the right plan and find whatever method works For you, right? It's your life. It's your path. There's no one-size-fits-all when it comes to being successful at your goals So if your circumstances require you to take certain difficult decisions take them because it's your life It's your responsibility and don't assume there's one formula for this. There isn't a formula. All right. See you in the other side Do it just subscribe, you know, you gotta do it *
